alt.fan.tolkien

On 2020-04-25, Steve Hayes wrote: > But according to Fowler's "Modern English Usage", the difference is > north and south rather than East and West, and cites the case of a > Scot who fell into an English river and was misunderstood when he > shouted out "I shall drown, no one will save me." You have that the wrong way round. he shouted "I will be drowned, no one shall save me."

On Sat, 6 Jun 2020 15:40:00 -0400, Glenn Holliday wrote: > > I had a manual push mower once. I worked well for a short while, > then pieces began to fall off. I'm so sorry to hear that, but we are all aging. My pieces are sagging, bt one has actually fallen off. :-) > Actually, I have an old scythe, which I mowed grass with a few > times > to find out what it was like. I would need to practice with it > more than I did to become skilled with it. I wonder if > Tolkien handled one of those when he was in the country? Or you could always just get a few goats. :-) -- Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/ https://OakRoadSystems.com/ Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen) Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u FAQ of the Rings: https://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Posting-Frequency: Monthly (FAQ also posted monthly) Welcome to the Tolkien newsgroups! Our FAQs can be found at: http://tolkien.slimy.com/ Even if you haven't read all of /The Hobbit/ and /The Lord of the Rings/, you are welcome here, but be careful! Spoilers for the stories can be anywhere, even in the subject line of a message. To help you join our community as comfortably as possible, we do ask that you read our Frequently Asked Questions lists before posting. The FAQs discuss proper "netiquette" for participating in discussions here, and also introduce the basics of our most frequent debates (the main Meta-FAQ page lists the most "important" questions in bold). Once again, welcome! We look forward to your participation.

Posted-By: auto-faq 3.3.1 (Perl 5.020) Posting-Frequency: monthly URL: http://tolkien.slimy.com/ TOLKIEN NEWSGROUPS FAQ Copyright (C) 1999-2012 by Steuard Jensen (Created 17 Aug 1999) (Last updated 11 Mar 2012) For many years, the Tolkien Usenet newsgroups have been home to a pair of excellent Frequently Asked Questions lists about Tolkien and Middle-earth, compiled by William D. B. Loos. These sources contain a wealth of information, but are no longer maintained (the last update seems to have been in July 1996). This means that quite a few issues of current interest to the groups are not fully addressed in those documents. This FAQ supplements, updates, and expands on the earlier ones, though it is not meant to replace them entirely. It includes new and corrected information on some of the old discussions, numerous entries on topics not covered in the older FAQs, and a broad discussion of the Tolkien newsgroups and common standards of netiquette. This FAQ is intended both as an introduction for newcomers to the newsgroups and as a source of information for anyone exploring Middle-earth. The official HTML version of the FAQ is on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/ The plain text version is posted to Usenet on the 22nd of each month and is also available on the web, at http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/TolkNgFaq.txt For a unified and easy to use interface to this FAQ, the Loos FAQs, and others, consider visiting the Tolkien Meta-FAQ, at http://tolkien.slimy.com/ I would like to give my sincere thanks to the many, many people on the newsgroups and elsewhere who have given criticism, suggestions, and encouragement as I wrote this FAQ. This project would never have succeeded without their wonderful support. Steuard Jensen steuard@slimy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Table of Contents Sections/questions marked: * have been revised since the last release ** are new since the last release I. Changes Since the Last Release * II. Newsgroups and Netiquette A. Information on the Tolkien Newsgroups 1. What newsgroups are we talking about again? 2. Why are there two groups? 3. Do I have to have a Ph.D. in Tolkienology to post? 4. What questions and topics are appropriate? 5. What does a tilde (~) in the subject mean? and Is it acceptable to post messages with sexual content? 6. What common mistakes should I try to avoid? 7. What do all the abbreviations used on the groups mean? B. The Basics of Netiquette 1. What is the proper subject line for my post? 2. What should I do when replying to an earlier article? For example, should I "top post" or "bottom post"? 3. When should I "cross-post" to multiple newsgroups? 4. I am able to post my messages with HTML formatting. Should I? 5. If someone insults me or otherwise makes me upset, should I flame them back? 6. Even if my reputation and honor are at stake? 7. Where can I go for more information on netiquette, and on Usenet in general? III. Debates and Discussion A. Story External Questions 1. What is the best order in which to read the books? 2. What books about Middle-earth are considered "canonical"? 3. How does /The Silmarillion/ as published differ from what Tolkien intended? 4. Which are "The Two Towers"? 5. Which books /about/ Tolkien are good, and which aren't? 6. Is Middle-earth Medieval? 7. Was Tolkien racist? Were his works? 8. Are there electronic versions of Tolkien's books? 9. Where can I report copyright violations that I observe? B. Story Internal Questions: Creatures and Characters 1. Did Balrogs have wings? 2. Could Balrogs fly? 3. What was Tom Bombadil? 4. Did Elves have pointed ears? 5. Did Elves have beards? 6. What happened to Elves after they died? 7. Was Glorfindel of Rivendell the same as Glorfindel of Gondolin? 8. Who was Gil-galad's father? 9. Did Dwarf women have beards? 10. Was there "telepathy" in Middle-earth? 11. Did Sauron have a physical form during /The Lord of the Rings/? * 12. What were the names of the Nazgul? 13. What was Gothmog (the lieutenant of Morgul)? 14. What was the origin of Orcs? 15. Were Orcs immortal, and what happened to them after death? 16. What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins? 17. What was the origin of Saruman's Uruk-hai? 18. What was the origin of Trolls? 19. What were the giants (seen by Bilbo in /The Hobbit/)? C. Story Internal Questions: History and Happenings 1. Why didn't they just have an Eagle fly the Ring to Mt. Doom? 2. Were the barrow blades magical? In what way? 3. Why didn't the Nazgul take the Ring at Weathertop? 4. Who killed the Witch-king, Merry or Eowyn? 5. Did Frodo and the other mortals who passed over the Sea eventually die? 6. Did Sam follow Frodo into the West? 7. What is known about the Blue Wizards? 8. Who was aware that a Balrog lived in Moria? 9. Did Elves and Dwarves generally get along? 10. Where was the Ring when Numenor was destroyed? 11. Who was the oldest inhabitant of Middle-earth? IV. External Resources A. Where else can I find general information about Middle-earth? 1. The Tolkien Meta-FAQ 2. The Tolkien FAQ and LessFAQ 3. The "FAQ of the Rings" 4. The Letters FAQ 5. Google's Usenet archive B. Where can I learn more about Tolkien's languages? C. Stories of Middle-earth in many forms 1. What editions of Tolkien's books are best? 2. What audio versions of Tolkien's books are available? 3. What is the groups' view of the recent /Lord of the Rings/ movies? 4. Where can I find out about music related to Middle-earth? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I. CHANGES SINCE THE LAST RELEASE Adjusted wording of question III.B.11 about Sauron's physical form to emphasize the relevance of the evidence to the period of LotR. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ II. NEWSGROUPS AND NETIQUETTE When discussing Tolkien (or anything else) online, it is important to know at least a little about the "culture" of the discussion forum that you are participating in. The information in this section is intended to give an idea of "appropriate" behavior on the Tolkien Usenet newsgroups. To make our discussions as enjoyable as possible, every participant should try to be familiar with what follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ II.A. INFORMATION ON THE TOLKIEN NEWSGROUPS 1. What newsgroups are we talking about again? There are several Usenet newsgroups specific to Tolkien and his works. However, the two most widely read and distributed of these are rec.arts.books.tolkien and alt.fan.tolkien, commonly abbreviated either r.a.b.t or RABT and a.f.t or AFT, respectively. The official rec.arts.books.tolkien charter can be found at http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/RABTcharter.txt Alt.fan.tolkien does not have a formal charter. ------- 2. Why are there two groups? Originally, AFT was the only Tolkien newsgroup on Usenet. RABT was created (when the approval vote passed on 26 Mar 1993) as a replacement for AFT which would be carried by a larger fraction of news servers. However, AFT was never removed, and both groups currently enjoy substantial readership. While only RABT has a formal charter (see question II.A.1 for reference), the two groups are virtually identical in intended content. Many participants see a tendency for RABT to be somewhat more "scholarly" in tone while AFT is a bit more "conversational", and some suggest that this distinction is useful and should be encouraged. Other participants draw less of a distinction between the two groups, and often believe that a difference in focus would be both undesirable and impossible to achieve. In practice, everyone decides for themselves how they want to treat the two groups, and most people generally don't complain one way or the other. ------- 3. Do I have to have a Ph.D. in Tolkienology to post? By no means! People with any amount of Tolkien "lore" are welcome to participate. It is advisable, however, to have read /The Hobbit/ and /The Lord of the Rings/ before spending much time here, as otherwise you run the risk of many, many spoilers for both books. When you do participate in discussions, just use whatever Tolkien knowledge you have: you can have great ideas regardless of how much you've read. Occasionally, others will cite sources (often obscure but just as often authoritative) that weaken or disprove your arguments. When this happens (as it does to every one of us), nobody will think less of you for not knowing the reference; treat it as a chance to learn something new about Middle-earth. ------- 4. What questions and topics are appropriate? Virtually any topic related (even distantly) to Tolkien and his works is fair game. If you post a purely "factual" question (like "How many Ringwraiths were there?"), it's a good idea to explain why you're asking: we periodically see questions from students who hope we will do their homework for them, and the last thing we want to do is help people to avoid reading the books! It is appreciated if articles that have absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien have subject lines beginning with "OT:" ("Off Topic"). The Tolkien newsgroups are a sufficiently social community that threads often do drift away from their initial topics, and while this should not be discouraged, it is polite to label it when it happens. On the other hand, off topic discussions that get too intense or go on too long can interfere with others' enjoyment of the groups, and should be avoided. Binary files, such as images or sounds, are NEVER appropriate in a non-binaries newsgroup. To share a binary file with people in the Tolkien groups, you have two main options. One is to find an appropriate newsgroup in the alt.binaries.* hierarchy, post the file there, and then post a message here telling us where to look. Another (more common) method is to put the file on the Web and post the URL on the newsgroups. ------- 5. What does a tilde (~) in the subject mean? and Is it acceptable to post messages with sexual content? Articles posted to these newsgroups occasionally contain comments that some consider inappropriate for younger readers. After much discussion, most participants agreed to mark messages with /sexual/ content with a tilde in the subject line. Individuals can then create killfiles to screen out such messages as desired. While not everyone agrees that such a system is beneficial, following this convention is the polite thing to do. The newsgroup charter recommends the use of ROT-13 "encryption" for this purpose, but this has become less common. ------- 6. What common mistakes should I try to avoid? By and large, the participants in the Tolkien newsgroups try to judge others based on their ideas rather than on details of grammar and posting style. However, there are a few types of simple mistakes that tend to cause some level of bias and annoyance among many group members, which in turn can distract them from your real message. Most of these are covered in the "Netiquette" section below. One common mistake of this type that is not related to netiquette is confusing the singular and plural forms of common Elvish words. On the Tolkien newsgroups, these words are so familiar that the phrase "Manwe is a Valar" sounds just as jarring and strange as "Finrod is an Elves." To reduce this problem, a list of some of the most commonly confused singular/plural pairs is given below. Note the patterns! Singular: Vala Maia Elda Noldo Teler Istar Adan Plural: Valar Maiar Eldar Noldor Teleri Istari Edain Another issue that arises periodically is whether or not /The Lord of the Rings/ should be referred to as a "trilogy". Tolkien said quite clearly in Letter #165 that "The book is /not/ of course a 'trilogy'", and some people make a point of correcting those who use the term. However, in Letter #252, Tolkien himself refers to "my trilogy", so most of us agree that using the term is an acceptable shorthand, if nothing else. ------- 7. What do all the abbreviations used on the groups mean? [More abbreviations can be found in section IV of the Tolkien FAQ.] Some names and phrases come up so frequently on the Tolkien newsgroups that they are often abbreviated for convenience. A few of the very most common are defined below; these definitions are excerpted from Sir Confused-a-Lot's old AFT Glossary, now online at http://silenceisdefeat.com/~aft-rabt/glossary/ JRRT: John Ronald Reuel Tolkien ME: Middle-earth LotR: /The Lord of the Rings/ FotR: /The Fellowship of the Ring/ TT: /The Two Towers/ RotK: /The Return of the King/ Silm.: /The Silmarillion/ UT: /Unfinished Tales/ HoMe: the "History of Middle-earth" series Letters: /The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien/ Narn: The "Narn I Hin Hurin" in UT Athrabeth: The "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" in /Morgoth's Ring/ NG: Newsgroup TEUNC: "Tolkien Eccentric Unusual Nut Cases", an eGroup of Tolkien fans, some of whom frequent the newsgroups LOL: Laughing Out Loud ROTFL: Rolling On The Floor Laughing ------------------------------------------------------------------------ II.B. THE BASICS OF NETIQUETTE 1. What is the proper subject line for my post? Make sure that the "Subject:" line of your post matches the topic that you are discussing. Be concise, but specific: subject lines such as "The Lord of the Rings" or "Tolkien" give no useful information about the contents of your post. Note that this does not only apply to the first post in a thread: if you see that the subject line no longer matches the topic of a thread, change it when you reply! Also, follow the "OT:" convention for off-topic posts (mentioned in question II.A.4 above). When you do change the subject line, it is polite to indicate the subject of the previous post. For example, "Balrog Wings" might become "Balrog Flight (was Balrog Wings)" and then "Eagles (was Balrog Flight)". This helps people follow the history of the thread. ------- 2. What should I do when replying to an earlier article? For example, should I "top post" or "bottom post"? First and foremost, make sure to retain the attribution of any quoted text, so others know who said the things you are replying to. Almost equally important, make sure that you trim the previous post as much as possible: * If you are replying to one specific comment in the previous article, delete all of the previous text except that comment. If the comment is at all long, try to trim it down to its essence. Type your reply directly beneath the quoted comment. * If you are replying to several distinct points individually, quote each one as above and type your reply immediately below it (and above the next point). * If you are replying to a long section that cannot be easily trimmed down (for example, an original poem or story), quote only its first and last lines (and perhaps put "[snip]" or "..." on a line in between the two). If there are particular pieces that you want to respond to individually, do so as described above. There are two general rules of thumb to follow in connection with the above guidelines: * Any article you post should have more lines of new text than lines of quoted text. It is generally acceptable to ignore this rule if the entire post (including basic headers and any signature) is short enough to fit on a single 24 line screen. * Any comments specifically replying to the previous article should come /below/ the relevant part of the previous article. This makes reading the article more like reading a conversation, and therefore much easier to follow. This obviously means that "top posting" is strongly discouraged: it forces readers to scroll up and down between the new and old material, and it usually involves quoting the entire previous post(s) untrimmed.. Whether you call our practice "bottom posting", "middle posting", or "standard netiquette" is up to you. An example of a post that follows these guidelines can be found on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/newsgroups/EssayDiscuss.txt This long message (from a discussion of my essay on Tom Bombadil) would be all but impossible to follow if the point by point replies were not organized as described above. Finally, make sure to keep the subject line up to date, as discussed in question II.B.1. ------- 3. When should I "cross-post" to multiple newsgroups? Generally, you should post an article to the single most appropriate group: a question about /The Hobbit/ is more appropriate on rec.arts.books.tolkien than on rec.arts.books. However, there are cases when several groups are appropriate: a discussion of the influence of Tolkien's faith on his writings could be interesting to readers of both soc.religion.christian.roman-catholic and rec.arts.books.tolkien. (Cases in which more than two or three groups are truly appropriate are extremely rare!) In such cases, it is almost always better to "cross-post" the article to multiple groups than to post separately to each. To do this, list all of the relevant groups together on the "Newsgroups:" line, separated by commas but /no/ spaces (many posts here list "Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien"). Cross-posting has several advantages, the most important being that responses to a cross-posted article are also cross-posted. That ensures that everyone involved in the discussion sees every reply. Some internet service providers (notably AOL) misguidedly forbid cross-posting, probably because /inappropriate/ cross-posting is very bad netiquette and is often used to "spam" many groups at once. If you have this problem, it may be better to choose just one "best" group for your post than to post separate copies to multiple groups. ------- 4. I am able to post my messages with HTML formatting. Should I? Generally, no. Many of us use simple text-based programs to read news, and posts with HTML formatting can be very difficult to read. You can generally turn off this behavior from the "Preferences" or "Options" section of your newsreader. For some newsreaders, you will need to change more than one setting to completely eliminate this behavior. ------- 5. If someone insults me or otherwise makes me upset, should I flame them back? No. 6. Even if my reputation and honor are at stake? Feel free to post any corrections or differences in opinion that you feel are necessary. Feel free to indicate that you are hurt, unhappy, or insulted because of their comments. But by no means escalate the budding flame war, and try your hardest to be polite in your response: this tends to get the group's sentiments on your side far better than any exchange of name-calling ever could. People are usually fairly good at recognizing when someone is being terribly unfair. Yes, it is undoubtedly your right to flame if you want to, but the vast majority of the group would be happier if you did not. In general, try to give others the benefit of the doubt: with only text to go on, it's hard to judge their real intent. Could you have misread the insulting lines in their post? Could they have been speaking tongue in cheek? Maybe they only meant to tease you, not realizing that you would really be insulted. Assuming the worst is a depressing way to live one's life. Finally, be particularly careful not to reply to a "troll", someone who intentionally fishes for arguments and flames. These people seem to take great personal delight in inspiring people to anger or indignation; the best reaction to them is generally to ignore them altogether. ------- 7. Where can I go for more information on netiquette, and on Usenet in general? One of the best places to start has always been the newsgroup news.announce.newusers. This group is home to a wide range of articles that provide introductory information about many aspects of Usenet news. Unfortunately, most of these articles are no longer being posted regularly to the group. It may be more effective to read archived copies of them at ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.announce.newusers/ Read the "Welcome to Usenet!" article there first. The information on netiquette and on Usenet in general in the news.announce.newusers articles remains very relevant today, but those articles are several years old. More recent information on similar topics can be found at the web sites associated with the news.newusers.questions newsgroup. A list of these sites around the world can be found at http://users.rcn.com/kateshort/nnq/nnqlinks.html (among many other places). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ III. DEBATES AND DISCUSSION A great many questions about Tolkien and his books arise repeatedly on the Tolkien newsgroups. The starting point of each debate is the same almost every time, and it takes a long time for the discussion to reach "new ground." In the worst cases, bitter and longstanding arguments about the basics get in the way before new progress can be made at all. The purpose of a FAQ is to avoid this problem by setting down the basics in a common place so that the discussion can deal with new issues from the start. However, it is very difficult to balance the need for conciseness with the need for completeness: many debates that repeatedly appear on the Tolkien newsgroups have generated very large amounts of "known territory." Keep in mind that this FAQ provides only summaries of these debates: many of their subtleties are omitted for the sake of brevity. Most of these topics have been discussed at length by many intelligent In these cases, it is extremely unlikely that any unambiguous "proof" of one position exists. With this in mind, try to be respectful toward those who disagree with you. To get more information on the usual content of common discussions, it is often helpful to browse those discussions themselves at the Google Groups Usenet archive (see question IV.A.5 for more information). Finally, be sure to read question III.A.2, dealing with "canonical" texts. This FAQ addresses only the state of Middle-earth after LotR was written, which corresponds roughly to the material included in the published /Silmarillion/. Details from earlier versions of the mythology will not be discussed in this document (and are generally given very limited weight in debates about the later state of the mythology). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ III.A. STORY EXTERNAL QUESTIONS 1. What is the best order in which to read the books? This depends on each person's personal preferences. Unless you strongly dislike stories written for children, most recommend reading /The Hobbit/ first. /The Lord of the Rings/ is certainly next (feel free to skip the Prologue if you find it dull, and after the main text try to read at least Appendix A.I.v, "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen"). If you enjoy any part of the Appendices to LotR, there are things in Tolkien's other books that you are likely to enjoy as well. Most suggest reading /The Children of Hurin/, /Unfinished Tales/, /The Silmarillion/, and /The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien/ next, in some order (perhaps that one). /The Children of Hurin/ is the only complete novel about Middle-earth published after Tolkien's death (although it takes place long before the events of LotR, it probably isn't necessary to read Silm. first). The stories and essays in UT can be read in any order, so the "Third Age" material is a good starting point for those coming straight from LotR (the "First Age" stories are excellent, but are easier to follow after reading Silm.; the other parts of UT are mostly accessible to those who have read LotR and its appendices). Many people find the early parts of Silm. slow to read (like a history book or the Bible), but it is often a favorite among those who have read it. /Letters/ contains insights into both Middle-earth and Tolkien as a person. For more details (and more books), try getting a personalized recommendation from the Custom Tolkien Book List, on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/books.html (This URL redirects to the longer and messier URL of the actual list.) ------- 2. What books about Middle-earth are considered "canonical"? [I have written an essay on this topic, including general observations and my own approach. It is on the web at: http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TolkParish.html.] As the term is used on the Tolkien newsgroups, a "canonical" text is one which is believed to provide authoritative information about Middle-earth. This concept is more subtle than it may appear at first glance, in part because most of Tolkien's mythology remained incomplete when he died. Books or even individual chapters or essays may be regarded as more or less "trustworthy" than others, and many people reject the idea that there is a single "true" Middle-earth entirely. Among those who accept the concept of "canon" to at least some degree, almost all agree that /The Lord of the Rings/ is a canonical text and most assign equal or near equal weight to /The Hobbit/ (the other books about Middle-earth published in Tolkien's lifetime are treated similarly). However, due to heavy and unmarked posthumous editing, /The Silmarillion/ is considered by many /not/ to be canonical (see question III.A.3 for details). People put various amounts of trust in the many drafts and essays in /Unfinished Tales/ and the "History of Middle-earth" series. In cases where Tolkien's intent seems particularly stable and clear, some trust these sources almost as much as /The Hobbit/ and LotR themselves. In practice, this means that most of the more trustworthy material is found in /Unfinished Tales/ and in volumes X-XII of the HoMe series. Opinions on how much to trust /The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien/ are mixed, but its contents are generally respected as long as they are not contradicted by other (more canonical) texts. The pictures in /J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator/ by Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull may also be considered somewhat canonical. It is important to note that many aspects of Middle-earth changed substantially over the course of Tolkien's life. Because of this, facts taken from the early versions of the mythology can be misleading or just plain wrong when used to draw conclusions about LotR or later versions of the mythology. This means that while the early versions can provide valuable hints about Tolkien's thoughts on an issue, they are rarely considered to provide definitive evidence for any position. The Custom Tolkien Book List (mentioned in question III.A.1) includes my own perspective on the "canonicity" of each section of each book in the list. While those are just one person's opinions, they are fairly typical. A static version of the list in publication order can be found on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/publist.html That static list still contains a link to the customizable version. ------- 3. How does /The Silmarillion/ as published differ from what Tolkien intended? This is a complicated question that is essentially unanswerable: despite his lifelong effort, Tolkien never came close to completing /The Silmarillion/. At Tolkien's request, after his death his son Christopher (with some help from Guy Kay) worked to "bring the work into publishable form"; Christopher discusses the difficulties involved in the book's Foreword. To understand why /The Silmarillion/ took the form that it did (and why it is rarely considered "canonical", as mentioned in question III.A.2), it is worth exploring those editorial changes. The full story can be found in the "History of Middle-earth" books, particularly /Morgoth's Ring/ and /The War of the Jewels/ (volumes X-XI). The most basic editorial decision was which writings to include in the book at all. The "Quenta Silmarillion" is of course the central text, but Tolkien also wrote numerous associated stories and essays. Charles Noad explored this question as part of his essay "On the Construction of 'The Silmarillion'" (published in /Tolkien's Legendarium/; see question III.A.5), where he suggests an "outline for 'The Silmarillion' as Tolkien may have intended it". In addition to the texts in the published book, Noad includes expanded versions of four stories: "The Lay of Leithian" (possibly in poetic form), "Narn i Chin Hurin", "The Fall of Gondolin", and "Earendil the Wanderer" (which Tolkien never even fully sketched). He also includes five "Appendices": writings about Middle-earth and its inhabitants such as "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" (most of these were published in HoMe X-XI). Sadly, a book with this outline could never be made satisfying with just the texts that Tolkien left us. Moving on to the texts that were actually included in /The Silmarillion/ as published, there were three types of problems to overcome. In the worst cases, there were crucial gaps in the narrative where Tolkien had never written more than an outline of the story (or where the most recent version was hopelessly outdated). Much more frequently, Tolkien's years of revisions led to factual inconsistencies between stories written at various times (especially between writings before and after /The Lord of the Rings/). And finally, Tolkien's writings differed markedly in tone, ranging from vivid narratives to terse annals to philosophical essays. To assemble a single text, consistent in style and detail, from such a range of source material clearly required substantial editing. Despite that pessimistic assessment, the vast majority of the published /Silmarillion/ is taken directly from Tolkien's work and seems to come quite close to what he intended, as far as it goes. (None of the "expanded" tales were ever completed, but what exists of them can be found for the most part in /Unfinished Tales/, /The Lays of Beleriand/, and the other "History of Middle-earth" books mentioned above.) Still, mild editing is not uncommon, and can be difficult to identify even by comparison to the source texts as published in HoMe. Thus, /The Silmarillion/ is often not treated as a final authority in scholarly discussions of Middle-earth. (A classic example is its mistaken ancestry of Gil-galad, as discussed in question III.B.8.) The greatest concern, of course, comes from those few cases where large gaps had to be filled by the editors. This happened to some extent for "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" and "Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath", but the most substantial editorial "invention" came in the chapter "Of the Ruin of Doriath". The episode was of crucial importance and thus could not be left out or glossed over, but Tolkien had written almost no description of the event since

The present monarch of Great Britain has now reached the age of ninety-four, never reached by Eomer (or Thain Isumbras III,or the Masters of Buckland Marmadoc and Saradoc Brandybuck)...only Aldor the Old among the Kings of the Mark remains as having reached a greater age. Shall she surpass him? -=-=- The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again, at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 19:59:22 -0400, Bill O'Meally wrote: > On 2020-06-01 06:40:30 +0000, Faux Dameron said: > >> On Sun, 31 May 2020 16:45:56 -0400, Bill O'Meally wrote: >> >>> "... saw the Lewises and C.W. (White Horse) for 1/2 hour; mowed three >>> lawns... Grr! The fourth lawn will have to wait." ibid, #63, p. 74. >> >> The ordinariness of it all makes me smile. It's too easy to put men like >> this on a pedestal above common drudgery. Do you suppose "C.W." is >> Charles Williams? > > Yes, I was snickering as I kept coming across these lawnmowing > references, possibly laughing out loud at the "Grr!". :-) Hence my > humerous (in my mind) subject line. CW is definitely Charles Williams. Hm. That does add a personal meaning to the line "And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.", doesn't it?

On 2020-06-01 06:40:30 +0000, Faux Dameron said: > On Sun, 31 May 2020 16:45:56 -0400, Bill O'Meally wrote: > >> "... saw the Lewises and C.W. (White Horse) for 1/2 hour; mowed three >> lawns... Grr! The fourth lawn will have to wait." ibid, #63, p. 74. > > The ordinariness of it all makes me smile. It's too easy to put men like > this on a pedestal above common drudgery. Do you suppose "C.W." is > Charles Williams? Yes, I was snickering as I kept coming across these lawnmowing references, possibly laughing out loud at the "Grr!". :-) Hence my humerous (in my mind) subject line. CW is definitely Charles Williams. -- Bill O'Meally

On 2020-06-04 23:37:18 +0000, Stan Brown said: >> > > That wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic! JRRT did like to play the > martyr on occasion, or maybe it's nearer the truth to say that he > sometimes exaggerated real misfortunes so that they seemed worse than > they were. IDHTBIFOM, but for example I think he talked about his > mother having been "persecuted" by the rest of the family, after his > father's death, because she stayed Roman Catholic. > > This is not of the same order, of course, but I could see him > claiming four lawns for "poetical exaggeration". And you can bet he used a (non-motorized) push mower! Can you imagine his dismay in his suburban existence at the noise of lawn equipment and their 'infernal combustion engines'? :-) As for Mabel Tolkien, he went as far to view his mother as a being martyr to the Catholic faith. -- Bill O'Meally

On Fri, 05 Jun 2020 09:18:32 -0700, Paul S Person wrote: >Sadly, he lived before the advent -- or, at least, the wide >availability -- of electric mowers. In my youth there were only manual mowers, with horzontal blade rotors driven by the wheels. When I grew up and needed one power mowers were available, and we bought a petrol one from a big firm. When if died, they said it wasn't worth repairing, it had a Briggs & Stratton engine, and they said that was rubbish, get a Robin. When that died, they said it wasn't worth repairing and the Robin engine was rubbish, get a Briggs & Stratton. At that point we left and went to the little guy up the road and bought an electric one. Long cord, but fewer moving parts, so lasts longer. And the little guy repairs it and services it, and only tells us to get a new one when it's really unfixable. But with as manual mower, Tolkien's comments are completely understandable. -- Stephen Hayes, Author of The Year of the Dragon Sample or purchase The Year of the Dragon: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/907935 Web site: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk

sure anything was there, and suggests that he did not know the nature of the "terror". Similarly, in "The Bridge of Khazad-dum", Gandalf clearly does not know what to expect: after confronting the Balrog through the door of the Chamber of Mazarbul, he says, "what it was I cannot guess". When the company finally sees it, he says, "A Balrog. Now I understand." If neither Gandalf nor Celeborn knew of its presence, it seems unlikely that any of the White Council did. ------- 9. Did Elves and Dwarves generally get along? In general, Elves and Dwarves were allies against Morgoth and Sauron. However, their attitudes toward each other seem to have varied substantially at different times and places. In some cases, they were great friends, while in others they viewed each other with substantial mistrust. There are indications of the latter in the Sindarin/Silvan kingdoms at the time of the War of the Ring, while something approaching the former held in Rivendell, where Gloin and Gimli were warmly welcomed. Opinions on the frequency of each attitude cover the entire spectrum. When Bilbo first meets Elves in /The Hobbit/ ("A Short Rest"), we read that "They were elves of course. ...Dwarves don't get on well with them", but that statement is certainly a broad generalization. One of the more direct statements on the issue can be found in the introduction to the Second Age in Appendix B of LotR: The Noldor were great craftsmen and less unfriendly to the Dwarves than the Sindar; but the friendship that grew up between the people of Durin and the Elven-smiths of Eregion was the closest that there has ever been between the two races. In general, this passage seems to imply that unfriendliness between Elves and Dwarves was common and that true friendship between them was relatively rare. However, it also demonstrates that such friendships did exist. ------- 10. Where was the Ring when Numenor was destroyed? [This updates question V.E.3 of the Tolkien LessFAQ.] This question is answered in detail in Letter #211. Tolkien says that when Sauron was taken to Numenor as a prisoner, "he naturally had the One Ring". He goes on to say that at the time of the Akallabeth, "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended." We know that Sauron could (eventually) rebuild a physical body even in spirit form, so carrying the Ring to safety seems plausible as well. (In fact, the Valar and Maiar must have used this sort of ability to shape the world in the first place.) A passage from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in /The Silmarillion/ is sometimes cited as evidence that, contrary to the statements above, Sauron left the Ring in Mordor before going to Numenor. In that essay, after Sauron returned to Middle-earth and rebuilt his body, "He took up again the great Ring". However, this is not a contradiction: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, one definition of "take up" is c. With special obj., implying a purpose of using in some way: as, to take up one's pen, to proceed or begin to write; to take up a book (i.e. with the purpose to read); to take up the (or one's) cross (see CROSS n. 4, 10): to take up ARMS, [etc.] Some have also argued that Ar-Pharazon would have demanded that Sauron give him the Ring, but (again in Letter #211) Tolkien says that "I do not think Ar-Pharazon knew anything about the One Ring." ------- 11. Who was the oldest inhabitant of Middle-earth? The answer depends on exactly what the question means. Below are listed a number of possible answers (as of the end of the Third Age), starting from the oldest. 1. Eru Iluvatar, the Creator... but he never inhabited Ea itself. 2. The Ainur (including Sauron, Gandalf, etc.): they existed before the Music that gave Middle-earth form. 3. Tom Bombadil. In addition to his direct claim that he is "Eldest" (confirmed at the Council of Elrond), he says that he "was here before the river and the trees", and that he "remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn". If he is one of the Ainur, this implies that he was the first of them to enter Middle-earth; if not, it probably means he was the first "native" inhabitant. 4. Some trees in Fangorn (and maybe elsewhere): Treebeard says that in some parts of his forest, "the trees are older than I am." 5. Treebeard. Gandalf tells Theoden that he is "the eldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things." (Given #4, Gandalf must actually mean something like "speaking living things", and given #2 and #3 he must be using a specific definition of "living".) If any of the Fathers of the Dwarves were alive (having been "reincarnated"), they might fall between #4 and #5. As any living Elf would certainly be one of Gandalf's "living things", all of them must be younger than Treebeard. (Although the Ents awoke only after the Elves, this does not prove that none of the "First Elves" remained alive: Treebeard could conceivably have existed as a normal tree before awakening as an Ent.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ IV. EXTERNAL RESOURCES While this FAQ is intended to provide a complete introduction to discussions of Tolkien and his works online, there is clearly far more information available than could be recorded in a single document. Some frequently asked questions require a more substantial answer that could possibly be given here. In this section are collected a few resources that address such questions. (Only resources that address specific questions asked frequently in the newsgroups are included here: this is not an attempt to list all of the excellent Tolkien web sites in existence.) Because most of these resources are located on the World Wide Web rather than on Usenet, it is always possible that they could move or disappear without notice. A reasonable effort will be made to ensure that the addresses here remain valid, but if these resources go away there really isn't much that we can do about it. (Please do let me know if a link here is broken.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ IV.A. WHERE ELSE CAN I FIND GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT MIDDLE-EARTH? 1. The Tolkien Meta-FAQ The Tolkien Meta-FAQ is not a resource of its own, but a unified index to this FAQ and the other FAQs listed in this section. By organizing all of their content in a consistent way with cross-references where appropriate, it will hopefully make finding the answers you want faster and easier. It is on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/ ------- 2. The Tolkien FAQ and LessFAQ Years ago, William D. B. Loos compiled two superb lists of frequently asked questions and answers. They are well written and well documented, and most of the conclusions that they reach have stood the test of time (some have even been strengthened by information that has been published since they were written). They are posted to the newsgroups roughly every four weeks. For convenience, they are also available in HTML form; the web addresses follow, along with each FAQ's summary. The Tolkien FAQ consists of "Frequently Asked Questions about the author J.R.R. Tolkien: questions commonly raised by the first reading of /The Hobbit/ or /The Lord of the Rings/; details of the background mythology and invented history which relate directly to the stories; biographical matters." It is on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/tfaq/ The Tolkien LessFAQ consists of "Less Frequently Asked Questions about the author J.R.R. Tolkien: questions on his lesser known works; questions on deeper and/or more obscure details of the invented history, background mythology, and matters philological and theological." It is on the web at http://tolkien.slimy.com/tlfaq/ ------- 3. The "FAQ of the Rings" Questions about the Rings of Power arise quite frequently in discussions of Tolkien's work, and it would be difficult to do them all justice in a general FAQ like this one. Because of this, Stan Brown has created a "FAQ of the Rings" addressing many such questions in depth. It can be found at http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm ------- 4. The Letters FAQ Many of the questions that arise in discussions of Tolkien's works are addressed in his letters, collected in /The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien/. As it can be difficult to find the letters that relate to a given topic, Mike Brinza has compiled a list of common questions and where to look for their answers. This can be found at http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html ------- 5. Google's Usenet archive The only way to learn the details of all the positions in a debate on the newsgroups is to read the debates themselves. The best Usenet archive currently available is hosted by Google, which contains posts all the way back to the founding of Usenet in the 1980's. Google's advanced newsgroup search page is at http://groups.google.com/advanced_search To search specifically on the Tolkien groups, enter "*tolkien" in the "Newsgroup" field (without the quotes, of course). The main interface on this page is mostly self-explanatory, and should be familiar to anyone who has used a web search engine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ IV.B. WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE ABOUT TOLKIEN'S LANGUAGES? One of Tolkien's primary motivations for creating Middle-earth and its history was to provide a home for the languages that he invented. The interest in those languages among his readers has given rise to many books, journals, web sites, and other resources for those who wish to learn them, and we could not even begin to list them here. Perhaps the best list of such resources can be found at the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship web site: http://www.elvish.org/resources.html For actual details regarding the languages themselves, one of the best web sites is Ardalambion, located at http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html A group of excellent Truetype fonts for writing in Tengwar and Cirth (together with a good introduction to using those alphabets) can be found at Dan Smith's Fantasy Fonts for Windows page: http://www.acondia.com/fonts/index.html Another excellent Truetype Tengwar font family is Tengwar Annatar, created by Johan Winge; it can be downloaded from http://home.student.uu.se/j/jowi4905/fonts/annatar.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ IV.C. STORIES OF MIDDLE-EARTH IN MANY FORMS 1. What editions of Tolkien's books are best? Every edition of Tolkien's books is different, and before you buy a copy it's worth knowing what those differences are. Mike Brinza has created an excellent guide to the editions of Tolkien's books currently available in the United States, which is on the web at http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/editions.html His main site also includes a list of British editions, although it does not have the level of detail of the US edition list. One book that deserves its own mention is /The Hobbit/: many find that /The Annotated Hobbit/, edited by Douglas A. Anderson, is the most satisfying edition of the story. It contains illustrations from many other editions, as well as detailed commentary on the text and its history (which can, of course, be ignored if you're not interested). ------- 2. What audio versions of Tolkien's books are available? A variety of verbatim audio book recordings and adapted dramatizations of Tolkien's books have been produced over the years. A good overview of these can be found at Mike Brinza's site: http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/tolkien-audio.html Even those who are not interested in audio books or radio plays should take note of the recordings of Tolkien himself that are available. In particular, /The J.R.R. Tolkien Audio Collection/ is a set of four CDs including J.R.R. Tolkien reading and singing excerpts from /The Hobbit/, /The Lord of the Rings/, and /The Adventures of Tom Bombadil/, as well as Christopher Tolkien reading lengthy passages from /The Silmarillion/. Separate recordings of interviews with Tolkien are also available. ------- 3. What is the groups' view of the recent /Lord of the Rings/ movies? By this point, virtually everyone with any interest in Peter Jackson's /Lord of the Rings/ movie trilogy is already quite familiar with them. Detailed information on the movies is inappropriate for a general FAQ, but there are many websites dedicated to the project. One good place to start is http://www.theonering.net/movie/faq/ Tolkien fans' opinions on the movies vary enormously. Most (but certainly not all) of those on the Tolkien newsgroups who have seen the films seem to have enjoyed the experience, but most found at least some aspects of them quite disappointing, too. (The second and third movies deviated from the books more than the first one did, and generated correspondingly more frustration.) This is obviously a matter of personal taste, so it is important to be polite to those whose reaction was different than yours. In the end, Peter Jackson's own words are as good a description as any: "Sure, it's not really THE LORD OF THE RINGS ... but it could still be a pretty damn cool movie." Discussing the movies on the newsgroups is certainly allowed: the rec.arts.books.tolkien charter explains that "The group would be open to discussion about art works which are based on Tolkien's works (e.g. graphic depictions of scenes from his worlds, musical settings of his ballads and poetry)." There has been a mild effort to limit movie-only discussions to alt.fan.tolkien, so that those who prefer to avoid movie talk can stay in r.a.b.t, but this is less important now that movie-related discussion has died down somewhat. ------- 4. Where can I find out about music related to Middle-earth? Many musicians have been inspired by Tolkien's books, enough that this FAQ could not hope to list them. Instead, we refer you to the Tolkien Music List by Chris Seeman, at http://www.tolkien-music.com/ The list is organized alphabetically by artist, and the lyrics for each song can be found by clicking on its title. The artist/title list is all on one page, which makes it possible to search for a title, but be aware that the page is very large and may take some time to load.